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Master and Commander
Posts: 1893
Location: Patterson, New York | Subject: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
At the link is an article in the Navy Times about women on boats. We had this discussion not too long ago.
If they really want to do this, I suggest they start with a few officers. The goal would be to get a crew of fully qualified senior officers to run a boat with junior female officers.
Eventually they could work to bring enlisted into the program. The idea would be to train enough labies to have an all female crew.
I just think putting a few females in with a bunch of boat sailors is a problem. Even with the best of intentions and good behavior, we are all human. On a big surface craft, there are plenty of places to hang out. Not so on a boat where living is too intimate.
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/09/navy_roughead_subs_092409w/ |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
There is a very lively discussion on this subject on Rontini's board.
Beyond the obvious problems of confined living conditions, I would be most concerned about the Navy resorting to EEO excellerated programs that may promote women too fast and beyond thier readiness to perform, and at the expense of moral of the crew.
The recent Supreme Court nomination (can't spell her name)has finally brought this issue out into open public discussion. It just is not right to promote anyone based largely upon race, gender or any other issue not affiliated with the advertised qualifications for the job. It is not fair to the selected candidate nor another more qualified candidate that was not selected. Now before we all get our "panties in a knot", I am not saying that a woman would not be the best for the job, I am merely stating that the rush to place a woman in a leadership role may cause a situation like this to occur.
Does anyone have knowledge of this occuring on surface ships? Or is it something that we still can't talk about in our PC world?
Steamboat sends |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 561
| Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
Women on surface ships is a subject that is not PC to talk about, or so it seems. If the true figures were published it would show that while most women can do the job it is the private life that gets in the way. Single Moms do like to deploy. Putting 18-21 year old boys and girls together aboard ships has been a disaster.
I worked at an Air Force Base for 22 years in Accounting and Finance. We had a contingent of about 60-70 military out of 250 personnel and they were about evenly divided between male and female. There were constant 'difficulties' between the troops with hurt feelings and such. In the dorms they had two person rooms, same sex, but had mixed floors. One summer A&F was the joke of the base as we had over 8 marriages take place. They called our building the "Love Boat" and such.
I had one female SSgt, single mom, never married, who told me during the first desert war that she would refuse to go if mobilized due to her son. All troops with kids were required to have a notorized form stating who their child would live with if sent out. She was adamant about her feelings so I sent her to the First Sgt for counseling. He was of the old school and a great guy to talk to. He told me that he had told her that if she refused to mobilize that he would personally hand cuff her, throw her over his shoulder, and throw her worthless ass on the plane. Great guy. The SSgt looked at her military career as a 8-4 job with all the benefits. I tried to explain to her that she was a volunteer in the military and she had to accept the bad with the good. She cried a lot.
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Senior Crew
Posts: 186
| Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
Women manipulate men. Especially in a familiar relationship as is developed by shipmates on a submarine. This is what would happen if women were assigned to the boats. It already happens on surface craft just like between husband and wives. Women are biologically created to control men. Most men will never agree with that and think that they are in charge. They are living in illusion. Women know this, most men don't. It is what will happen on subs once women get aboard. Rank doesn't matter.
Joe'the'Most |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
Father of a female airborne officer who retired two years ago. Rose from private to major in a twenty year career. Commanded men and was sent to clean up the HQ Company of the 82nd ABN Aviation Brigade to follow-up on a pair of totally worthless previous company co's who were male. She was a "first go" at Jumpmaster School, where 70% of the jumpmaster wannabes take two to three tries to sucessfully complete the course. Within three months she went from secondary to primary jumpmaster and rose from novice parachutist to senior parachutist, crushing her L-1 veribrea on the last jump (a volunteer experimental jump male infantrymen wouldn't sign up for. After leading her OCS class and receiving the highly coveted Jess Walls Sabre from the Infantry School at Benning for Outstanding Leadership (she did this after not-quite recovering from her back injury and ran the famous DARBY COURSE the Ranger Obstical Course in pain and completing it..36 males and 2 females bolo'ed the course. She was commissioned by then Maj General Henry Shelton CO of the 82nd ABN in front of the monument to my Dad's outfit. Some fellow kept following me around...old wornout coot...When he trailed me into the men's room and stood behind me while I was taking a whiz, I turned to confront him. "Are you following me?" "Yes" "Why?" "Let me explain. my name is_______and I was a platoon leader in Lefty's battalion....(My Dad who retired as an O-6 airborne regimental CO was called "Lefty" by all his beloved jumpers) I rode Lefty's pack cover out the door of a shot up C-47 on the Sicily jump...We landed twenty feet apart in a vineyard being sprayed by machine gun fire." He opened his hand and handed me this old scratched up, partialy corroded green Second Lieutenants bar (collar insignia). I was wearing that...wanted to give it to Kris...John Scott your Old Man's exec told me about Lefty's grandaughter and I rode down here from Atlanta on a Greyhound and got a cab out here. Thirty minutes later Henry Shelton and this little man that life had treated badly, stood on each side of a very proud female jumper and pinned her bars on at Dad's outfits monument...and later that night, Solveig and I had a steak dinner with a brand new 2nd Lt. wearing a strange partiqally green bar on her shoulder and smiling...a brand new officer just out of the cellophane in three weeks after requesting permissive jump status, granted to serious jumpers, not "staff weenies badge hunting" she stood in front of the CO of the Benning Jump School and got her Master Parachutist wings pinned on...When she retired she was elgible to wear Australian SAS parachute wings, Canadian Jump wings and Venzuelan wings, had four Army Commendation Medals, two Army Achievement medals and one of everything they ever issued for service in the Mid-East...She was a private to major trooper with over 400 full equipment...Her motto..."If it comes with tires or testicles it's going to cause you trouble" She says...Tell your sub buddies to grow up, pull up their panties and face the music...I've read their whining about female troops for years and I could out soldier most ofthem on their best day. We're here and a lot of us are far better than some of the snuffy's who pee standing up. If women can stand in the door and exit high performance aircraft at 20,000 feet they sure as hell can ride those submersible love boats. Gentleman she's proud and tough and has done everything this couhntry asks of a paratrooper and laughs at all this moaning and groaning. DEX |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
| Subject: It's about time the US....
....was dragged kicking and screaming into the 'real world' ( don't ya just hate that phrase? I know I do! )
Submarines of other 'lesser' nations have women serving on submarines, even good old Australia.
If we can do it, I am sure you guys can.
Would there be problems? of course there would......but if you are a professional service, you adapt and overcome.
Not going to say any more on the subject because at the end of the day, there are many reasons for, and against, depending on your own point of view and no one is going to sway the other.
Blue *_*
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 811
Location: NW Connecticut | Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
Women have very done well in combat these past 8 years, from pilots to truck drivers and several have lost their lives and many more have been wounded
But Being an old Submariner and knowing the conditions submariners serve under I think this would be most difficult. Of course women are capable.. The issue is human nature and the human sexuality especially locked up for months at a time in a small space..Women do have different "needs".. In other services the women and men can retire to their own spaces.. Maybe women can serve on special boats that don't do extended deployments..or on all women crews like other Navies.. Imagine the protest the wives and husbands of submarine crews will have..
As for me I don't care.. I have no dog in this fight.. My only Daughter is a 32 year old school teacher.
My Oldest Son in his early days on the Teams had a Tee shirt that read "When a Woman Can do my Job I'll Quit".... I loved that shirt it got him so much flack.
The Navy SEALs have no restrictions to sex.. You just have to pass the testing which is equal for men and woman unlike other services that have different physical requirements according to sex.. So far no woman have made the grade. I'm sure some day one will. 
Blue I know you know there is a huge difference in application and operations of a Nuke boat and a Diesel boat. On deployment Two months or longer submerged with no surfacing is a whole different experience than being in a part time submersible.. No pun intended as I am an ex rider of both. Women riding on extended submerged deployments in a mixed crew is a shrink's worse nightmare. Heck it was a shrinks worse nightmare for us... I don't think it's the best place to test social science. But hey it's a brave new world now isn't it.
I for one wish we had women on my Boats.. Those long northern runs would have been much more interesting... Guys like Doc Gardner and other Corpsmen would have to change rate to HMOBGYN....
Edited by Smiley 2009-09-26 6:52 PM
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
Got a real nasty off-line e-mail...from some supposedly tough hombre who thinks women in the military are dragging our military preparedness down and blah-blah-blah. Best line, " I sure as hell ain't going to thank any (C-word deleted) for her military service." First of all Champ, you're talking about my daughter, Second, I've met you and know enough about you to know, you wouldn't last twenty minutes in a "wheels up in eight hours" spearpoint rapid deployment STRAC outfit (neither would I). You Champ aren't a blip on her radar screen...she wouldn't know you if you fell out of a tree and landed on her. The last thing she worries about is your opinion regarding her service our whether or not you would feel didinclined to thank her for the damn tough contribution to the defense of the country she so dearly loves. She wonders if depriving women from serving at risk for patriotic reasons, makes your manhood that much more potent....She loves the military and regrets the loss of so many troops who served with her and under her immediate command. She wonders where you were during the run up to the first Gulf War...Desert Storm. She was living in a glorified hole in the ground (called a fighting position) that she dug with an entrenching tool, roofed and sandbagged by herself. She panelled the inside and framed her rifle ports with lumber taken from torn apart wooden warehouse skids...While you were at Willy's Pizza stuffing your face, she was fighting insects, small rhodents, lizards, other unknown bugs and reptiles, cosmetic powdered sand and dust and heat...living on MRE's (prepackaged Meals Ready to Eat or in their words Meals Rejected by Ethiopians), month old mail and relieving herself in a cut in half oil drum. She was serving with in her words,"some of the finest troops ever assembled and forged into a cohesive fighting unit." I'm proud of her...the late Capt. Slade Cutter, two sport All American at the Academy,(football and heavyweight boxing...only two consecutive year NCAA heavyweight national boxing champion title holder...and in the words captured in a Tommy Cox ballad, "never hit the canvas"...during WWII he earned four Navy Crosses...They used to say if you earned one Navy Cross you had had a great dcareer. Captain Cutter stopped me at our second REQUIN reunion and said, "you have every reason to be damn proud of that young lady...for I sure am." Horsefly, I'd rather have that endorsement rather than the praise of an old cynical E-5 jerk off, any day. General Shelton, then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs invited his "Captain Kris" to sit with him, which she gratefully accepted...at the dedication of the Women's Memorial at the entrance to Arlington's National Cemetery. Only once in her career did she get less than the highest efficiency rating known as "top block" and in that one instance her hard earned rating was given to the son of a large contributor to a political party, the Administration wanted promoted to Lt. Col...a man known for lolligagging and slipping off to play in the Pentagon gym and shoot a couple of rounds of golf at the Army-Navy Club...while Kris was assigned to go to the whitehouse twice a week to brief Cheney on IED situational awareness and status of currently effective or ineffective roadside bomb discovery efforts and developing counter measures. The Army's excuse for robbing her of a well deserved top block rating was, "Hell Kris you're retiring and don't need another top block rating...by giving it to this guy, we can get him promoted to take your position. Sad but indicative of how corrupt some of the system has degenerated. In their dishohnesty they robbed their top performer of leaving the Army with what is known as a "picket fence career of all consequtive top block performance ratings". Well Doofus, it's time for me to close up my tent, take it down and pack it up and hit the hay. All the BS "Thank you for your service" handshakes becomje a sad joke set beside handshakes from Slade Cutter, Gene Fluckey, Red Rammage, Ron "Warshot" Smith, Arthur Gaines Smith and all the other subsailors and guys like Jim Mandelblatt. I hate for her to read that the crybaby attitude of my beloved Diesel Boat Service is demeaning the tough road to professional acceptance they earned at great personal sacrifice. Like Blue said..."After most of the rest of the world's navies have successfully merged all sexually oriented factions into a successfully managed dual gender undersea program...only the US with it's male dominated population can't figure out how to create a two gender boat crew. Why, because U.S. sailors can't put their carnal appetites under gentlemanly control....and wives who catch hubby under the eagle-eyed often hoodwinked brow POW camp guards and supervisory stwardship. SAD, but the Army broke the code and thumbed their collective noses at what they call dumbass swabbies, who according to statistical data presented by whing nay sayers here, proves that forces afloat have an uncontrolled and out-of-control desire to diddle one another. When a universally jerk like you attacks my daughter, it makes me feel nothing but pity for your mother, who did a lousy job teaching you manners and respect and proper respect for a most men. And want called out to take herself out of consideration for tough and demanding assignments and waiting for someone to throw open the doors of abu-garb...and wait for me to send them home to purchase an extra load if blankies to toss on our beds. Thanks to you folks who sent "Right on folks...now let's us either get out of the anti-female subsailor talk or be saddened by their obviously coming sub crew assignment and integration into the force...and causing us to look like the imature tailhook US Navy international embarassment. Again, she's my grown up "little girl" and I would be far less than a rotten Dad if I stood by and let jaybirds trash her military service. Hey all these crybaby wives could have gotten up off their tails and paid some all volunteer national service, themselves. DEX |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
Got a real nasty off-line e-mail...from some supposedly tough hombre who thinks women in the military are dragging our military preparedness down and blah-blah-blah. Best line, " I sure as hell ain't going to thank any (C-word deleted) for her military service." First of all Champ, you're talking about my daughter, Second, I've met you and know enough about you to know, you wouldn't last twenty minutes in a "wheels up in eight hours" spearpoint rapid deployment STRAC outfit (neither would I). You Champ aren't a blip on her radar screen...she wouldn't know you if you fell out of a tree and landed on her. The last thing she worries about is your opinion regarding her service our whether or not you would feel didinclined to thank her for the damn tough contribution to the defense of the country she so dearly loves. She wonders if depriving women from serving at risk for patriotic reasons, makes your manhood that much more potent....She loves the military and regrets the loss of so many troops who served with her and under her immediate command. She wonders where you were during the run up to the first Gulf War...Desert Storm. She was living in a glorified hole in the ground (called a fighting position) that she dug with an entrenching tool, roofed and sandbagged by herself. She panelled the inside and framed her rifle ports with lumber taken from torn apart wooden warehouse skids...While you were at Willy's Pizza stuffing your face, she was fighting insects, small rhodents, lizards, other unknown bugs and reptiles, cosmetic powdered sand and dust and heat...living on MRE's (prepackaged Meals Ready to Eat or in their words Meals Rejected by Ethiopians), month old mail and relieving herself in a cut in half oil drum. She was serving with in her words,"some of the finest troops ever assembled and forged into a cohesive fighting unit." I'm proud of her...the late Capt. Slade Cutter, two sport All American at the Academy,(football and heavyweight boxing...only two consecutive year NCAA heavyweight national boxing champion title holder...and in the words captured in a Tommy Cox ballad, "never hit the canvas"...during WWII he earned four Navy Crosses...They used to say if you earned one Navy Cross you had had a great dcareer. Captain Cutter stopped me at our second REQUIN reunion and said, "you have every reason to be damn proud of that young lady...for I sure am." Horsefly, I'd rather have that endorsement rather than the praise of an old cynical E-5 jerk off, any day. General Shelton, then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs invited his "Captain Kris" to sit with him, which she gratefully accepted...at the dedication of the Women's Memorial at the entrance to Arlington's National Cemetery. Only once in her career did she get less than the highest efficiency rating known as "top block" and in that one instance her hard earned rating was given to the son of a large contributor to a political party, the Administration wanted promoted to Lt. Col...a man known for lolligagging and slipping off to play in the Pentagon gym and shoot a couple of rounds of golf at the Army-Navy Club...while Kris was assigned to go to the whitehouse twice a week to brief Cheney on IED situational awareness and status of currently effective or ineffective roadside bomb discovery efforts and developing counter measures. The Army's excuse for robbing her of a well deserved top block rating was, "Hell Kris you're retiring and don't need another top block rating...by giving it to this guy, we can get him promoted to take your position. Sad but indicative of how corrupt some of the system has degenerated. In their dishohnesty they robbed their top performer of leaving the Army with what is known as a "picket fence career of all consequtive top block performance ratings". Well Doofus, it's time for me to close up my tent, take it down and pack it up and hit the hay. All the BS "Thank you for your service" handshakes becomje a sad joke set beside handshakes from Slade Cutter, Gene Fluckey, Red Rammage, Ron "Warshot" Smith, Arthur Gaines Smith and all the other subsailors and guys like Jim Mandelblatt. I hate for her to read that the crybaby attitude of my beloved Diesel Boat Service is demeaning the tough road to professional acceptance they earned at great personal sacrifice. Like Blue said..."After most of the rest of the world's navies have successfully merged all sexually oriented factions into a successfully managed dual gender undersea program...only the US with it's male dominated population can't figure out how to create a two gender boat crew. Why, because U.S. sailors can't put their carnal appetites under gentlemanly control....and wives who catch hubby under the eagle-eyed often hoodwinked brow POW camp guards and supervisory stwardship. SAD, but the Army broke the code and thumbed their collective noses at what they call dumbass swabbies, who according to statistical data presented by whing nay sayers here, proves that forces afloat have an uncontrolled and out-of-control desire to diddle one another. When a universally jerk like you attacks my daughter, it makes me feel nothing but pity for your mother, who did a lousy job teaching you manners and respect and proper respect for a most men. And want called out to take herself out of consideration for tough and demanding assignments and waiting for someone to throw open the doors of abu-garb...and wait for me to send them home to purchase an extra load if blankies to toss on our beds. Thanks to you folks who sent "Right on folks...now let's us either get out of the anti-female subsailor talk or be saddened by their obviously coming sub crew assignment and integration into the force...and causing us to look like the imature tailhook US Navy international embarassment. Again, she's my grown up "little girl" and I would be far less than a rotten Dad if I stood by and let jaybirds trash her military service. Hey all these crybaby wives could have gotten up off their tails and paid some all volunteer national service, themselves. DEX |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
Got a real nasty off-line e-mail...from some supposedly tough hombre who thinks women in the military are dragging our military preparedness down and blah-blah-blah. Best line, " I sure as hell ain't going to thank any (C-word deleted) for her military service." First of all Champ, you're talking about my daughter, Second, I've met you and know enough about you to know, you wouldn't last twenty minutes in a "wheels up in eight hours" spearpoint rapid deployment STRAC outfit (neither would I). You Champ aren't a blip on her radar screen...she wouldn't know you if you fell out of a tree and landed on her. The last thing she worries about is your opinion regarding her service our whether or not you would feel didinclined to thank her for the damn tough contribution to the defense of the country she so dearly loves. She wonders if depriving women from serving at risk for patriotic reasons, makes your manhood that much more potent....She loves the military and regrets the loss of so many troops who served with her and under her immediate command. She wonders where you were during the run up to the first Gulf War...Desert Storm. She was living in a glorified hole in the ground (called a fighting position) that she dug with an entrenching tool, roofed and sandbagged by herself. She panelled the inside and framed her rifle ports with lumber taken from torn apart wooden warehouse skids...While you were at Willy's Pizza stuffing your face, she was fighting insects, small rhodents, lizards, other unknown bugs and reptiles, cosmetic powdered sand and dust and heat...living on MRE's (prepackaged Meals Ready to Eat or in their words Meals Rejected by Ethiopians), month old mail and relieving herself in a cut in half oil drum. She was serving with in her words,"some of the finest troops ever assembled and forged into a cohesive fighting unit." I'm proud of her...the late Capt. Slade Cutter, two sport All American at the Academy,(football and heavyweight boxing...only two consecutive year NCAA heavyweight national boxing champion title holder...and in the words captured in a Tommy Cox ballad, "never hit the canvas"...during WWII he earned four Navy Crosses...They used to say if you earned one Navy Cross you had had a great dcareer. Captain Cutter stopped me at our second REQUIN reunion and said, "you have every reason to be damn proud of that young lady...for I sure am." Horsefly, I'd rather have that endorsement rather than the praise of an old cynical E-5 jerk off, any day. General Shelton, then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs invited his "Captain Kris" to sit with him, which she gratefully accepted...at the dedication of the Women's Memorial at the entrance to Arlington's National Cemetery. Only once in her career did she get less than the highest efficiency rating known as "top block" and in that one instance her hard earned rating was given to the son of a large contributor to a political party, the Administration wanted promoted to Lt. Col...a man known for lolligagging and slipping off to play in the Pentagon gym and shoot a couple of rounds of golf at the Army-Navy Club...while Kris was assigned to go to the whitehouse twice a week to brief Cheney on IED situational awareness and status of currently effective or ineffective roadside bomb discovery efforts and developing counter measures. The Army's excuse for robbing her of a well deserved top block rating was, "Hell Kris you're retiring and don't need another top block rating...by giving it to this guy, we can get him promoted to take your position. Sad but indicative of how corrupt some of the system has degenerated. In their dishohnesty they robbed their top performer of leaving the Army with what is known as a "picket fence career of all consequtive top block performance ratings". Well Doofus, it's time for me to close up my tent, take it down and pack it up and hit the hay. All the BS "Thank you for your service" handshakes becomje a sad joke set beside handshakes from Slade Cutter, Gene Fluckey, Red Rammage, Ron "Warshot" Smith, Arthur Gaines Smith and all the other subsailors and guys like Jim Mandelblatt. I hate for her to read that the crybaby attitude of my beloved Diesel Boat Service is demeaning the tough road to professional acceptance they earned at great personal sacrifice. Like Blue said..."After most of the rest of the world's navies have successfully merged all sexually oriented factions into a successfully managed dual gender undersea program...only the US with it's male dominated population can't figure out how to create a two gender boat crew. Why, because U.S. sailors can't put their carnal appetites under gentlemanly control....and wives who catch hubby under the eagle-eyed often hoodwinked brow POW camp guards and supervisory stwardship. SAD, but the Army broke the code and thumbed their collective noses at what they call dumbass swabbies, who according to statistical data presented by whing nay sayers here, proves that forces afloat have an uncontrolled and out-of-control desire to diddle one another. When a universally jerk like you attacks my daughter, it makes me feel nothing but pity for your mother, who did a lousy job teaching you manners and respect and proper respect for a most men. And want called out to take herself out of consideration for tough and demanding assignments and waiting for someone to throw open the doors of abu-garb...and wait for me to send them home to purchase an extra load if blankies to toss on our beds. Thanks to you folks who sent "Right on folks...now let's us either get out of the anti-female subsailor talk or be saddened by their obviously coming sub crew assignment and integration into the force...and causing us to look like the imature tailhook US Navy international embarassment. Again, she's my grown up "little girl" and I would be far less than a rotten Dad if I stood by and let jaybirds trash her military service. Hey all these crybaby wives could have gotten up off their tails and paid some all volunteer national service, themselves. DEX |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 561
| Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
Dex must really be pissed to post this 3 times.
T.Spoon, DBF |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
| Subject: Dex, sorry you had to recieve....
....crap like that from some ignorant prick.
Probably my best advice is to ignore it completely. Like when some people don't like what you write, I tell them to ignore it.
To denigrate anyone's Service to your/my nation is in bad taste and you yourself have done it in some of your posts but two wrongs don't make a right.
Ignore it and don't let it ruin your day.
Blue *_* |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
| Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
Initially we encountered the division amongst the wives....."I'm not going to allow my husband to go to sea with women" and even a CO refused to go to sea with them, resigned his Commission he felt so strngly about it. That's fair enough, they have their own philosophies and really, are entitled to them. I just felt sorry for the guys whose career was cut short because of his wife's stupidity.
As for your point Smiley in regards to the different conditions and styles of Deployment from a Diesel and a Nuke, I can see that there would be issues there. But, not all boats need to deploy for so long....perhaps. I was never involved in Operational aspect of deployments, I just did them. The longest I ever went to sea for was 49 days straight with 40 of that dived. My longest Deployment was 5 months.
I don't doubt there would be problems, some male caused, some female caused. But, if you are professional enough, then you can do any job required of you.
Blue *_* |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 602
Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
This discussion reminds me of an episode of the TV show "The West Wing".
Two of the Senior Staffers (can't remember their names, but played by Rob Lowe and Brad Whitford) were grilling two Air Force majors from the Pentagon about Gays in the military and "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, a black Admiral, interrupts the session, and points out to the staffers that they are wasting their time. The majors would only parrot the party line, and in fact were too junior to have their opinion matter.
He goes on to say something like "They said that letting blacks into the services was a bad idea, it would affect unit cohesion and morale. And they were right, it did affect the unit. But guess what - the unit adapted, and now here I am. When the president says 'This will change', it will change, and the unit will adapt."
The time WILL come when we have women serving on submarines. The trick will be to find the least disruptive way to get there. I hope they will have to pass the same tough tests that we did, but those who do should be given the same respect and honor that we give each other and those who now serve, because, like LCol Kris, they will have earned it.
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 602
Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
TSpoon - 2009-09-26 7:54 PM
Dex must really be pissed to post this 3 times.
T.Spoon, DBF
Quite understandable. But at least he kept it clean.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1893
Location: Patterson, New York | Subject: RE: SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
The expectation seems to be the problem of the crew "falling in love" with eachother.
But if you start the program with senior officers, that problem will not appear at first.
The big mistake would be to go "all in" right out of the gate. It needs to be done in managable steps.
How did the other navies of the free world do it? Maybe we do not have to reinvent the wheel.
SSBNs would be a good place to start since they have the room to adapt for privacy. |
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SecNav, CNO: Women should serve on subs
