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Senior Crew
Posts: 168
Location: St. John's, Newfoundland. | Subject: HP Air. Tech Question.
On entering the HPA Compressor the air passes through a, "Strainer." OK, what is the difference between a Strainer and a Filter? Is the former for, 'lumps,' and the latter for the fine stuff? Maybe I'm picking fly-poop out of pepper, but it might be useful later.
My work email addy is now on my profile, drop me a line. Thanks, Hairy. |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 168
Location: St. John's, Newfoundland. | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question. Part 2.
4th stage on HPA compresser: It goes throughn the AFTERCOOLER, then the check valve and the SEPERATOR....
What is a, "SEPERATOR?"
Thanks, Hairy. |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 168
Location: St. John's, Newfoundland. | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question. SEPERATOR
OK, found it! Duh... 
Hairy. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
Never gave it much thought about the difference between a a strainer and filter, actually. I've always considered them as you say, "former for, 'lumps,' and the latter for the fine stuff?
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
Ralph Luther - 2009-07-04 11:20 AM
Never gave it much thought about the difference between a a strainer and filter, actually. I've always considered them as you say, "former for, 'lumps,' and the latter for the fine stuff?
The Difference Between Strainers and Filters
What is the difference between a strainer and a filter? Actually there isn’t any since a strainer is, in reality, a coarse filter. The question is then one of semantics. Generally it is assumed that if the particle to be removed is not visible to the naked eye, the unit is filtering, and if the particle is visible, the unit is straining. The average human eye can detect a specific particle between 50 and 70 micros. Most people cannot see anything smaller than 325 mesh, or 44 microns. Since 200 mesh is equivalent to 74 microns, a general rule would be that if the screening device is coarser than 200 mesh, it is a strainer and if it is finer than 200 mesh it is a filter.
One of the best uses for a strainer is in conjunction with a filter. By installing a strainer directly ahead of a filter, the large heavy pieces which would quickly clog the filter are removed. The filter is then free to do its major job of fine particle removal and does not have to be cleaned so often.
Edited by Stoops 2009-07-04 11:57 AM
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
Well, yeah, Dave, that's what Hairball and I said   . Only we said it in DB terms. Thanks for the Technology. Can we go and drink a beer now?  |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1796
Location: Albany, GA. | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
Would that be 4500 pound piston Ingersalls or a Worthington centrifugal Compressor? Both had intake filters and oil seperators on the suction due to the Hipac bay being directly behind the main lube oil bay. Of course that was on a 627 class where the diesel was a Fairbanks - Morse. I think I remembered that correctly. I rebuilt one of the beasts each of 12 patrols, and got to know them well. I can even tell you how loud the discharge relief is when it lifts on #1 while your in the bilge working on #2 because some idiot shifted a valve line=up they shouldn't have. |
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
Hairball finally refined his question to "separator." A separator is different from a filter or a strainer because of the inherent process and what happens to the material being removed from the stream. Filters and strainers catch and retain "foreign" particles out of the stream flowing thru them. The discussion about the difference between "filter" and "strainer" is 4.0 as stated --- but as I said, neither is a separator. A separator on the output end of a 3000psi Hardie-Tynes separates water from the compressed air. The condensate is drained off and not retained within the separator - thus distinguishing separators as a different device than a filter. Back in the enginehouses, we had lube oil and fuel oil purifiers - a form of centrifugal separator that required manual removal of the gunk they slung out of fuel/lube oil before they hit their respective filters! You farm boys remember the DeLaval separator out by the milk house that we spun raw milk in to pick of some really rich cream? Again, separator, not filter. |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 168
Location: St. John's, Newfoundland. | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
My ENGLISH accent must have SOB baffled!
No, I know/knew the difference between the filters and a seperator. It was the difference between strainers and filters I was wondering about.
The farm-cream idea sounds good. When I was a kid the milk bottles had about 2 inches of cream on the top and Jersey Milk had about 3 inches and man was it good. On a hot day an ice-cold bottle of that was perfect.
Cheers, Hairy. |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 168
Location: St. John's, Newfoundland. | Subject: To SOB.
How much of a detailed a description do you want of the HP Air Compressors? I've (hand) written a précis for re-write and post-submission and can go through it point-by-point covering the how, what, why and where of it.
Awaiting your direction.
Hairball.
PS. Drop me an email.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
It also seemed to me that while strainers are generally metal and cleanable, filters are not. Filters are normally disposable and replaced with new ones. Does that hold water with you guys? |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2673
Location: New Jersey | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
Yep! Agree with your premise Dave....You remember the lube oil strainers with the "T" handles on top of them. You usta rotate them every so often to clean/scrape the insides of said strainers. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2673
Location: New Jersey | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question. Part 2.
Okay Hairball listen up!
When the compressed air leaves the 4th stage of the HPAC it is VERY HOT! As it passes through the aftercooler, the air is cooled down somewhat and as it cools it condensation occurs. The separator is designed to remove that moisture.
Hope that helps Hairy!
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Senior Crew
Posts: 168
Location: St. John's, Newfoundland. | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
Thanks Runner! Have a good one, Hairy. |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 168
Location: St. John's, Newfoundland. | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
HP Air, was the cooling water for this compressor from a closed circuit system, did it use conditioned (i.e. rust inhibitors) water?
Hairy. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2673
Location: New Jersey | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
No rust inhibitors used to my knowledge....I only remember cooling water being used for the oil in the sump. I have bad memories of replacing the packing in those packing glands....Remove 198 nuts. Install new packing, tighten up 198 nuts; Uh oh a drop of water leaking...Remove 198 nuts, pull out cooler, replace 5 or 8 rows of packing with the cut ends staggered (to prevent leaking), reconnect and tighten 198 nuts and turn on water & pray!!
Now I am of course exaggerating about 198 nuts...but the space was so tight between the HPAC & the FM base & to squat and remove the nuts made it seem like there was 198 nuts. If the cooler leaked it seemed like there were 298 nuts to remove.
Don't let anyone tell you that they never had a leak after they finished repacking one of them coolers either. They are liars or their minds have erased the bad memories!!!
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
I can't talk for diesel boats since I wasn't on one, but I'd guess fresh water was precious enough so that if you could use sea water for cooling, you did.
On the PERMIT, we had some fresh water cooling....some of the forward electronic equipment had their own cooling, which was ultimately cooled by sea water, as did the Reactor Plant Fresh Water Coolers in the AMS. I don't know of any other coolers that didn't use seawater, but it has been a long time.
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
Hairball - HP Air, was the cooling water for this compressor from a closed circuit system, did it use conditioned (i.e. rust inhibitors) water? Hairy. I have to admit that my brain cells are getting a bit wobbly here. Most of my current knowledge comes from working on PAMPANITO - which is a BALAO class Portsmouth boat. Because the dinky is still in the AER lower flats, the HPACs are in the Pump Room. OK, some general recollections here - most equipment that is water cooled in a diesel boat (at least thru the TENCH class) has a primary coolant of sea water and a secondary coolant of fresh water. The "radiator" where the salt water conducts the heat accumulated in the fresh water is called a heat exchanger. All main engines, the dinky, main motors, and generators had heat exchangers (full of pencil-sized zincs) and I recall that we put some approved inhibitor in the fresh water side but I can't swear to that. I can tell you with 100% certainty that we put Nalcool on the fresh water side of every cooling system aboard PAMPANITO. Now, I remember that the Hardie-Tynes are also cooled by the same mechanism - i.e. salt water cools fresh water in the heat exchanger and fresh water circulates thru the interstage coolers and lube oil cooler. PAMPANITO's HPACs are OOC because an exchanger sprung an internal leak and someone got salt water into the lube oil ... this happened long before my time but the baby s**t is still there - and harder than a rock by now. Getting those bastards back online is Jim Kyser's and my next major project now that those FM-38Ds are crushing rocks again. Anyone got a line on Hardie-Tynes these days? Their website talks about huge machines and doesn't even have a HPAC listed. They don't respond to E-mails either. Did their line of HPACs just fade away or did they sell that product line to someone else -- and if so, who??? We need some parts peculiar that we can't make ourselves, including 2 lube oil heat exchangers and a couple of 2-3 interstage check valves that went astray ... Hey - Joe - working on these beasts in the Pump Room beats hell out of your predicament! At least there is enough room to get in a good swing and really bust your knuckles! I recall 16 nuts but I agree that it sure seemed like 20 times that many - and yes, even after staggering the packing, those mothers still managed to weep a little. That is known as the "Second Law of Conservation of Wretchedness." The First Law is" "There SHALL be wretchedness." Any questions? |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2673
Location: New Jersey | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
Bill, Thanks for filling in the blanks....I too sent an email to Hardie Tynes asking them for any info, either hard copies or via internet. But it sounds like I won't be hearing back from them based on your experience. I would love being out there and working on them puppies with you. On Sirago, they were in the lower flats of the fwd engineroom and I worked on them constantly. Myself and another engineman overhauled them in '62 while in the yards. They had been removed, so we had room to work on them.
Lube oil cooler packing and the scrape, scrape, scrape of the babbit on new bearings was a most tedious affair! Good luck on your endeavor... |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
Bill check your PM. |
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: HP Air. Tech Question.
>>>the scrape, scrape, scrape of the babbit on new bearings was a most tedious affair!
Joe - I still have my red wooden handled hollow-ground triangular bearing scraper and have used it for years on all sorts of fine tuning projects - standard USN issue back in 56 or so, made in Sweden and let me tell you, that instrument (too good to be called a "tool" is bomb-proof! I actually used to scrape in the mains and conn rod bearings on 4-bolt main Chevy 350s that the local dragsters used - in front of an iron cased 2-speed Powerglide. Slicker than snot!
Yeah, on VOLADOR our Hardie-Tynes were also in the lower flats of the FER and that humungous air conditioning unit replaced the dinky in the AER. I know I wouldn't fit anymore - those areas must have gotten wet and shrunk! A lot!
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HP Air. Tech Question.
