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Master and Commander
Posts: 1890
Location: Patterson, New York | Subject: Submarine 18 hour days
At first, I was not sure what they meant about 18 hour days. Then they explain the 6 on and 12 off rotation.
In the Weapons Dept on Polaris boats we did 8 on and 16 off; I remember this because I always had the Midnight to 8 AM Launch Supervisor watch. It was considered the best because most of the missile drills were in this time frame; so, you were ready to go.
Any of you guys do an 18 hour rotation while underway?
Studies could mean end of 18-hour days on subs
By Andrew Tilghman - Staff writer - Navy Times
Posted : Saturday Apr 25, 2009 8:37:54 EDT
Since the 1960s, submariners have typically maintained 18-hour days on deployment, creating an underwater lifestyle with daily rhythms linked to meals and artificial lighting.
But the Navy could end up changing that cycle back to 24 hours, as mounting research suggests the existing schedule can impair performance and cause health problems.
Studies show that even without clocks and sunlight, human biology is best suited for 24-hour cycles. Moving to 18-hour days can create conditions similar to jet lag, said Lt. Christopher Steele, the lead researcher for fatigue issues with the Submarine Medical Research Laboratory in Connecticut.
“It’s like flying to Paris every day,” Steele said of the 18-hour day. “Unfortunately, that results in unpredictable rhythms for alertness.”
Steele and other researchers from his laboratory plan to go on a long-term deployment later this year to study submariners’ response to various sleeping patterns.
Senior Navy leaders will not make any decisions until the study is complete.
“There are currently no plans to change the standard 18-hour watch-standing cycle onboard U.S. Navy submarines,” said Cmdr. Patrick McNally, spokesman for the Submarine Force.
“When the study is completed we will evaluate the results, balanced with other requirements, and make a determination if any changes to watch-standing cycles are necessary.”
A submariner’s typical day at sea revolves around six hours on watch, six hours of other duties and six hours of sleep.
Previous, shorter studies aboard the ballistic-missile submarine Maryland and the attack submarine Pittsburgh during the past year suggested that dividing a 24-hour day into three eight-hour shifts resulted in better performance, Steele said.
Some more complex three-day cycles were also examined — stacking six-hour shifts, then taking larger 12- or 24-hour blocks off for sleep — were not as successful, Steele said.
Without optimal sleeping patterns, sailors can show lower levels of alertness, limited reaction times or irritability, Steele said.
Steele’s research is based on the study of circadian rhythms, the biochemical and physiological fluctuations that people experience every day.
For example, the body produces a hormone known as melatonin that typically peaks on a 24-hour cycle during deep sleep. But studies show the daily production of melatonin cannot synchronize with an 18-hour day, Steele said.
The 18-hour day also could be making it more difficult for submariners to stay in good shape, Steele said.
Chronic disruption in circadian rhythms can increase risk for heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure and obesity, according to a study by Harvard University researchers released March 2. The study focused on civilian shift workers.
Any changes in watch schedules could come from individual submarine commanders, McNally said.
“It is also important to note that commanding officers retain the authority and flexibility to adjust watch schedules as necessary to maintain the safest and most effective watch rotation given the complex environment in which submarines operate,” he said.
3 work-cycle options
Officials with the Naval Submarine Medical Research Laboratory are studying three work-cycle options for submariners:
• 18-hour day: Six hours on watch, 12 hours off (current practice).
• 24-hour day: Eight hours on watch, 16 hours off.
• Three-day cycle: Six hours on, six off, six on, 12 off, six on, six off, six on, 24 off.
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 566
Location: Inyokern, Ca. | Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
Our boat was based on the 6 hour watch- 18 hour day. I rarely saw it because I (AEF and AUX) was almost always P&S, 8 and 8.
DOOW (Chiefs, Chop, and one PO1) usually stood 4 or five section, 6 hour watches. COW was 3 to 4 section.
BB |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
We did a patrol 6 on 12 off and I didn't much care for it. I did my share of P&S too but liked the 4 on 8 off, with a shift in the middle of the patrol.
My favorite watch was the AEF when the fresh bread came out of the oven. I could sign off a lot of forward systems and the baker needed most of the ones I could sign off on, so I didn't have a problem getting a half a loaf of bread while it was still hot and fresh!!!
(yeah....I know....Stoops, you're a nuke. What were you doing as AEF?) Well, when we were in the yards at Pearl, I asked the Engineer if I qualifed AEF would he let me stand the watch. He said ok, so I started qualifying. As it turned out, when we were getting ready to deploy for trials, the two senior IC forwards quit and left only one qualified IC3 to stand the watch. The maneuvering watch was no more secured than I got called to the crews mess and told to get my qual card. I only had one or two signatures left to get, so I got a checkout by the Eng and the E Div officer and was told, You and Vandy are port and starboard. Now get those two FNs trained and qualified!
I really liked that watch. I wasn't restricted to any compartment at all, the regular duties were pretty easy, I don't recall that I had hourly readings to take, and I got to be on the plotting parties, which were fun. I think the fwd ICmen had it made! And coming into port, all I had to do was get the phones connected....didn't have to fight those shore power cables!
I only made one patrol as AEF, then had to go back to being a nuke! Well, it was fun while it lasted.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1262
Location: Va.Beach,Va. | Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
Tom ,I stood Launcher Supervisor 6 on and 12 off when we had enough qualified
troops.I ,as LPO,however preferred the mid -6 because it gave time to catch up on my paper work.The first half of most patrols,we were in Port & Starbord due to
personnel rotation and COW requirements.I went to war with the wierdroom one patrol when I was forced to stand COW so as to keep that watch station in 4 sections while my troops stood Port & Starboard at launcher  |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 561
Location: Belleview, Fl | Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
The only thing that I didn't hear that LT say was "in my experiance in the military" it has been found that it is more conductive to have our saliors sleep more....... HOLY CRAP batman what in the heck does the LT know about standing watch onboard a submarine????? I would LOVE to see him stand port and starboard (12hour) watches in the torpedo room or 6-12's. The balls to 6 watch (00:01 to 06:00) on the planes wasn't too bad but standing watch in the room was miserable... don't get me wrong as a TM I didn't mind the quiet time but it got old quick with no on other then the AMR watch or the AEF to keep you up, 12 on and 12 off really hurt in the room but that is a different story for a different time. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2561
Location: Rapid City, SD | Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
What the hell happened to the other six hours? That's kinda like same-sex marriages. There is no such thing, so why do people even talk about it? Days are twenty-four hours long. Sheesh! Even I know that, and I'm not even qualified.
Cora |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2253
Location: Foothills of the Ozarks | Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
When I was on the Roosevelt SSBN 600 Gold we did the 6 hour watch with 12 hours off and our Medical Officer did his research program on the effects of that. This was in 1969; his report showed pretty much what they are talking about in this study and it got deep sixed. After returning from Viet Nam where sleep was a luxury I liked the 12 hours off but back in port it made for some real interesting adjustments.
How many of you after returning would stay on that sleep schedule for a few weeks?
Edited by Doc Gardner 2009-04-26 7:43 AM
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
| Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
Mostly we would carry out 3 hours on, 6 hours off watch. Then we would do the 6 hours on, 6 hours off standing rotation for Patrol's etc
On the Surface, as a POOW ( when I was an E7 equivalent ) I could do anything from 2 hours on, to 14 hours off - all dependent on how many PO's were qualified POOW Surface.
Blue *_* |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
The shifts ran continuos,, Cora.. 6 on 12 off and then 6 on again in a 24 hour day. That was for the lucky ones. The Engineering sections did a lot of 4 on 4 off/ Port & Starboard watches |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1454
| Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
Other than the occasional P&S it was always 6 on and twelve off. I used to look on it as a 12 hour work day since 6 &12 became 6,12, and 6 adding to 24. I never knew you guts on the 600G stood 6 and 18. Maybe it was just the docs and probably the Yeoman next door. In the yards we stood 4 hour watches. I liked the mid to 4AM since I could greet the Krispy Kreme delivery at the YRBM. Then I had the rest of the day to mess around. Sleep! What sleep? Sleep is defined as practicing for dead. |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 186
| Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
Seems like all you 'nookie poo' youngsters did weird things. Back in the day(remember diesel boats?) we stood 4 on 8 off around the clock. I think the clock was 24 hrs. but it's been so long ago I can't be sure.
Now I'm not talkin about the candy diesel boats that did the show at liberty ports while the nooks did the spook stuff. I'm talkin about the days when the 'snorks' did it all.
( Did I get yer juices flowin?)
Joe'the'Most
Edited by subvetss 2009-04-26 7:34 AM
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2253
Location: Foothills of the Ozarks | Subject: RE: I got it wrong
Tom; Gold did same as Blue; 6 on 12 off, I must still be feeling the effects of those odd ball schedules and typed in the wrong number.
I'm sure it's not all the years that have passed since then; that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Mess cooking
Posts: 46
| Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
When I was on the Nathan Hale in the 60s it was 6 and 12. I could be wrong since I never had to stand P&S but think they were 6 and 6. It seems I also remember sleeping a lot during the 6 and 18 for ROs part of my last patrol. Now THAT was hard to take. |
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Plankowner
Posts: 9165
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
We did do a 6 on 12 off except my department, we did 8 on and 16 off. I always worked the mid watch and assisted the night baker. |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 602
Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
My experience was always 6&12 underway for most watchstanders, with officers & Enlisted Supervisors (EWS, DooW, CooW) usually in 4-section (6&18). The few times I was P&S it was 6-on, 6-off. In-port was always 4-hour watches, fore and aft.
Engineering training was always on the morning watch, Drills and/or Field Day on the afternoon watch, and movies on the evening and mid-watches as soon as the mess decks were cleaned up after chow.
On the missile boat, you could just about count on a Battle-Stations Missile WSRT drill on the midwatch every two or three days. My bunk was right under the Ward Room, and the 7MC announcement for "Alert-1" always woke me up.
Weekly ops were the worst for me. It took me about 3-4 days to get my body clock in synch with the watch rotation, then we'd pull in on Friday afternoon and do 3-section weekend duty, then back out on Monday morning. Never got in synch.
Long hauls were better, I had time to get in synch, but I still went through periods where I just could not sleep (failed-open), and the only remedy was to stay up for 24 hours, then try to sleep.
In overhaul, shift-work for testing was 3x8-hours, just like the yardfowl.
My last tour, at Subase Pearl R-10, when we went to shift-work for a major job, it was 12&12, 0800 & 2000 shift-change. Plus we still had to cover all the routine day-shift support for the rest of the boats.
No rest for the wicked, or the extremely multi-talented.
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 602
Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
Oh, I almost forgot - to this day, over 20 years since I last went to sea, I cannot sleep more than 6 hours at a time.
Not even if I am sick, exhausted, or dead drunk.
5-6 hours => PING! Awake. I can roll over and go back to sleep, but I can't stay asleep for more that 6 hours at a time.
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 539
Location: Palm Bay, Florida | Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
Oh, I almost forgot - to this day, over 20 years since I last went to sea, I cannot sleep more than 6 hours at a time.
Wait until your prostate takes over your sleep schedule Don.... I'm down to 2 to 3 hours at a time now. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: Submarine 18 hour days
I concur!!! |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2253
Location: Foothills of the Ozarks | Subject: RE: hey Ralph
Ralph Luther - 2009-04-27 10:17 AM
I concur!!!
Get yourself some "Depends" for old pharts and just sleep through it
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: hey Ralph
Hey Doc, if it would work I'd try it. Sharon would make me sleep out in the garage full time then. Jessie, my blk lab, would be over joyed with me in the garage, she'd have my side of the bed to herself then. |
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Submarine 18 hour days
