Just a kick in the.....
cobber
Posted 2009-09-17 12:35 PM (#30842)


Mess cooking

Posts: 49

Location: Port Orange, Florida
Subject: Just a kick in the.....

Today I took my wife for her medical appointment at our family doctor...I told him that we both had our flu shot for this year, but not the swine shot and asked him if we could get it...He told me that since we both are over 65, Obama says that we are not eligible for the shot, due to our age...I spent 32 years active duty, mostly on the boats, now I'm being told by our Commander-in-Chief that I don't qualify...Somehow, it just don't seem fair...

cobber
crystal
Posted 2009-09-17 12:46 PM (#30843 - in reply to #30842)


Master and Commander

Posts: 2191

Location: Port Ludlow, WA (the Olympic Penninsula)
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

John, it obviously has nothing to do with your Navy career only the fact that you are NOT in one of the high risk categories for contracting swine flu!  Would you rather get the shot and find that there are not enough available to safeguard that 6 year old down the block? 
Ralph Luther
Posted 2009-09-17 2:14 PM (#30850 - in reply to #30842)
COMSUBBBS

Posts: 6180

Location: Summerville, SC
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Cobber, this is just the beginning.
You'd think that the drug companies would realize the need. Their R&D departments are sucking up dollars by the truck load and they don't have sense enough to look down the road to see the demand.
RCK
Posted 2009-09-17 2:36 PM (#30851 - in reply to #30842)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1431

Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

It is called age discrimination. I would like to know who is making the decisions as to who is too old to be protected from infectious diseases. What do you want to bet that the rules that are being set up do not apply to the House and Senate representatives, big donaters to the political parties, and family members of the rulling elite. Anyone want to march on Washington?
Corabelle
Posted 2009-09-17 3:50 PM (#30853 - in reply to #30851)


COMSUBBBS

Posts: 2561

Location: Rapid City, SD
Subject: Count me in for the march!

FINALLY...THE $64,000 QUESTION WAS ASKED...

Yesterday (news article dated 09/05/09) on 'ABC' (Better known as the All Barack Channel) during the 'Network Special on Health Care'...Obama was asked: Mr. President will you and your family give up your current health care program and join the new 'Universal Health Care Program' that the rest of us will be on????

There was a stoney silence as Obama ignored the question and chose not to answer it!!!

In addition, a number of senators were asked the same question and their response was..."We will think about it."

With this article, a picture of a well-known newsman talking to our president was included, but I can't remember his name.

As far as the swine flu shot. I thought the 'elderly' are in the high-risk class, and elegible for the shot.

Cora

Edited by Corabelle 2009-09-17 4:38 PM
Park Dallis
Posted 2009-09-17 4:00 PM (#30854 - in reply to #30842)


Old Salt

Posts: 419

Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Actually, H1N1 has proven to be much more hazardous to the young than the old.

It seems that persons born before 1957 have a certain amount of immunity to the virus, probably as a result of exposure to some genetic relative of the current H1N1 in the past.

You should rely on the advice of your doctor as to whether or not you should get this immunization.  He/she knows you, knows your state of immune health, and knows the amount of risk you face from the H1N1.
cobber
Posted 2009-09-17 4:09 PM (#30856 - in reply to #30842)


Mess cooking

Posts: 49

Location: Port Orange, Florida
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

I wouldn't want to deprive a youngster from getting the shot...I was going by what Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius told Congress....Eventually, "we will have enough vaccine available for everyone"...Having open heart surgery 6 bypasses, COPD and asbestos in my lungs, I believed I was in the at-high risk grouping...Anyway, I can wait...

cobber
RCK
Posted 2009-09-17 4:59 PM (#30859 - in reply to #30842)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1431

Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Sorry to heart that the elderly are at more risk. The elderly are at risk for swine flu. Secondly there is no way of ascertaining the risk factor for individuals based on age. An individuals risk for dying depends on their overall health and less than their age. Many that are forced into the "elderly" catagory are in good health,sometimes better than the younger generation. This talk of excluding people from the vaccine based on age is pure bull.
Stoops
Posted 2009-09-17 5:21 PM (#30860 - in reply to #30842)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1405

Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US)
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Well, I can't think I can put any confidence in the federal officials mentioned above. They have no credentials in the medical field.....matter of fact, I'd really ask if they have any credentials at all......


Stoops
Posted 2009-09-17 5:22 PM (#30861 - in reply to #30859)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1405

Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US)
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

RCK - 2009-09-17 4:59 PM

Sorry to heart that the elderly are at more risk. The elderly are at risk for swine flu. Secondly there is no way of ascertaining the risk factor for individuals based on age. An individuals risk for dying depends on their overall health and less than their age. Many that are forced into the "elderly" catagory are in good health,sometimes better than the younger generation. This talk of excluding people from the vaccine based on age is pure bull.



What am I missing here? I thought I just read the young were more at risk than the old? Clear seems to think so too.

Who is right?

Park Dallis
Posted 2009-09-17 5:29 PM (#30862 - in reply to #30861)


Old Salt

Posts: 419

Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Stoops - 2009-09-17 4:22 PM
Who is right?


Me and the Chief.
RCK
Posted 2009-09-17 5:38 PM (#30864 - in reply to #30861)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1431

Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Here is what the CDC is aying regarding the elderly and the Swine flu

However, officials are expressing caution, as data is still being finalized, and "can't say" about the exact nature or degree of any extra protection enjoyed by the elderly, said Anne Schuchat of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Until then, the CDC is advising older people to exercise the same preventative measures as everyone else.

Blue from West Oz
Posted 2009-09-17 5:42 PM (#30867 - in reply to #30861)


Master and Commander

Posts: 2357

Subject: My Understanding Is....

Stoops - 2009-09-18 7:22 AM

What am I missing here? I thought I just read the young were more at risk than the old? Clear seems to think so too.

Who is right?



....that it is the younger generation that are most at risk.

My Dad ( age 66 ) laughed when he told me, "It's about time you young bastards were sorted out".....he meant that in a funny way in case anyone is offended!

Also I believe it is the infirm that are at risk also...I was kind of hoping the scum in my unit that are AIDS ridden would fall of the perch when a few guys were suspected of having the swine flu, but damn it, they all survived. ( Not very nice of me I know, but considering their crimes, well.... )

Blue *_*
Skii
Posted 2009-09-17 5:49 PM (#30868 - in reply to #30842)


Great Sage of the Sea

Posts: 597

Location: Tucson, Arizona
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

I read something about the extinction of the weak and feeble in another country - this could be just the start of weeding out those elderly by a legitimate excuse called swine flu.
With all of our wealth and medical technology I cannot we can not produce enough vaccine to eradicate this nasty problem. I wonder how many Viagra, Cialis and Levitra pills are made a month? Then again I wonder how many injections are being sent to the Congress and White House? It is just another mismanagement going on in Washington.

Veteran's are not on top of the White House take care of list - Maybe they will let Acorn handle the distribution of the H1N1 program.

Enjoy what you voted for

Ski
Stoops
Posted 2009-09-17 5:50 PM (#30869 - in reply to #30867)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1405

Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US)
Subject: RE: My Understanding Is....

Blue from West Oz - 2009-09-17 5:42 PM


Also I believe it is the infirm that are at risk also...I was kind of hoping the scum in my unit that are AIDS ridden would fall of the perch when a few guys were suspected of having the swine flu, but damn it, they all survived. ( Not very nice of me I know, but considering their crimes, well.... )

Blue *_*


Blue,
I think that our gummint is counting on denying healthcare to the elderly to enable them to provide healthcare to the "chosen".

I can not offer more than that without becoming political, but the proposed healthcare "reforms" will do nothing but pit rich against poor, black against white, and destroy competition and therefore destroy the best healtcare system in the world.
RCK
Posted 2009-09-17 6:13 PM (#30870 - in reply to #30869)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1431

Subject: RE: My Understanding Is....

The problem with vaccines is it takes along time to develope the stuff to begin with and it isn't a cheap process. Wearing a face mask that is
of the right design is thought to be helpful. These masks are heavier and more moldable to form a good seal on your face. The vaccine is the
best protection but the administration is not a friend of the elderly when it comes to this issue. They want to give the available vaccine to the
youths. I believe they have certain motives that I won't discuss here. There are risks associated with all vaccines and should be discussed
with your doc, but I won't blindly accept what we are being told . Some folks are being denied the vaccine base on age and I am opposed to
this strategy.
Blue from West Oz
Posted 2009-09-17 6:43 PM (#30871 - in reply to #30869)


Master and Commander

Posts: 2357

Subject: Your Healthcare System....

Stoops - 2009-09-18 7:50 AM


I can not offer more than that without becoming political, but the proposed healthcare "reforms" will do nothing but pit rich against poor, black against white, and destroy competition and therefore destroy the best healtcare system in the world.


Stoops, Don allows political as long as no one gets nasty and personal about it.

With that in mind, how can you say you have the best health system in the world when as an example, a widowed mother of two pays US$1,500 a month of private health, and my ex wife ( with my 2 kids and same ages as Kathy ) pays AUD$150 for the same cover? ( that would equate to AUD$2,000 by the way )

Looking at the figures, I cant believe you have the 'best healthcare system in the world'....and no, I am not saying we have, just cant work out how you came to your point.

Are you saying your healthcare system needs no ammendments at all?

What becomes of the poor/less well off in your society when they become sick?

I know of one person on this BBS who is struggling to meet his daily commitments and is sick and therefore unable to get the correct medical coverage he requires. Is that how to treat your fellow citizens?

Not everyone is lucky enough to have made the right decisions in life, or through divorce, become poorer. It's taken me a few years to get back on my feet, but I was 'lucky' as she did want to screw me well into the ground and I would have had nothing at all.

Healthcare isn't just for the well off in society, it should be for all!

Blue *_*
Stoops
Posted 2009-09-17 7:12 PM (#30872 - in reply to #30871)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1405

Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US)
Subject: RE: Your Healthcare System....

Blue from West Oz - 2009-09-17 6:43 PM





Stoops, Don allows political as long as no one gets nasty and personal about it.

With that in mind, how can you say you have the best health system in the world when as an example, a widowed mother of two pays US$1,500 a month of private health, and my ex wife ( with my 2 kids and same ages as Kathy ) pays AUD$150 for the same cover? ( that would equate to AUD$2,000 by the way )


Because I am not confused about the "best health care in the world" and the cost of it. We do have the best healthcare in the entire world. How could you doubt it? I think Mikey may protest, but any rational person can't.

The issue which our idiot politicians cannot grasp is a reasonable private solution.....Our congress is full of idiot nannies....and most of them should be taken out in a field and shot for either gross stupidity or treason...it makes no difference to me...



The health insurance issue would go away if the feds would get the flock out of the way and the states would quit demanding mandates.. Let everyone look at policies they want to buy...not what some stupid flock idiot in DC demands that we have to have as a choice................



The "healthcare crisis" is not a crisis at all....it is a crisis in American ignorance and a lack of critical thinking skills which have not been taught for years in our schools which have led to...................whoops...this is Don's board..............





Looking at the figures, I cant believe you have the 'best healthcare system in the world'....and no, I am not saying we have, just cant work out how you came to your point.

Are you saying your healthcare system needs no ammendments at all?

What becomes of the poor/less well off in your society when they become sick?

I know of one person on this BBS who is struggling to meet his daily commitments and is sick and therefore unable to get the correct medical coverage he requires. Is that how to treat your fellow citizens?

Not everyone is lucky enough to have made the right decisions in life, or through divorce, become poorer. It's taken me a few years to get back on my feet, but I was 'lucky' as she did want to screw me well into the ground and I would have had nothing at all.

Healthcare isn't just for the well off in society, it should be for all!

Blue *_*
GaryKC
Posted 2009-09-17 7:42 PM (#30876 - in reply to #30842)


COMSUBBBS

Posts: 3673

Location: Kansas City Missouri
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

John, your doctor may want to read this, seems the CDC has plans...imagine that.

2009 H1N1 Vaccination Recommendations

With the new H1N1 virus continuing to cause illness, hospitalizations and deaths in the US during the normally flu-free summer months and some uncertainty about what the upcoming flu season might bring, CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices has taken an important step in preparations for a voluntary 2009 H1N1 vaccination effort to counter a possibly severe upcoming flu season. On July 29, ACIP met to consider who should receive 2009 H1N1 vaccine when it becomes available.

2009 H1N1 Vaccine

Every flu season has the potential to cause a lot of illness, doctor’s visits, hospitalizations and deaths.  CDC is concerned that the new H1N1 flu virus could result in a particularly severe 2009-2010 flu season.  Vaccines are the best tool we have to prevent influenza.  CDC hopes that people will start to go out and get vaccinated against seasonal influenza as soon as vaccines become available at their doctor’s offices and in their communities (this may be as early as August for some).  The seasonal flu vaccine is unlikely to provide protection against 2009 H1N1 influenza.  However a 2009 H1N1 vaccine is currently in production and may be ready for the public in the fall. The 2009 H1N1 vaccine is not intended to replace the seasonal flu vaccine – it is intended to be used along-side seasonal flu vaccine. 

CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), a panel made up of medical and public health experts, met July 29, 2009, to make recommendations on who should receive the new H1N1 vaccine when it becomes available.  While some issues are still unknown, such as how severe the flu season, the ACIP considered several factors, including current disease patterns, populations most at-risk for severe illness based on current trends in illness, hospitalizations and deaths, how much vaccine is expected to be available, and the timing of vaccine availability.

The groups recommended to receive the 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine include:

  • Pregnant women because they are at higher risk of complications and can potentially provide protection to infants who cannot be vaccinated;
  • Household contacts and caregivers for children younger than 6 months of age because younger infants are at higher risk of influenza-related complications and cannot be vaccinated. Vaccination of those in close contact with infants younger than 6 months old might help protect infants by “cocooning” them from the virus;
  • Healthcare and emergency medical services personnel because infections among healthcare workers have been reported and this can be a potential source of infection for vulnerable patients. Also, increased absenteeism in this population could reduce healthcare system capacity;
  • All people from 6 months through 24 years of age
    • Children from 6 months through 18 years of age because cases of 2009 H1N1 influenza have been seen in children who are in close contact with each other in school and day care settings, which increases the likelihood of disease spread, and
    • Young adults 19 through 24 years of age because many cases of 2009 H1N1 influenza have been seen in these healthy young adults and they often live, work, and study in close proximity, and they are a frequently mobile population; and,
  • Persons aged 25 through 64 years who have health conditions associated with higher risk of medical complications from influenza.

No shortage of 2009 H1N1 vaccine is expected, but vaccine availability and demand can be unpredictable and there is some possibility that initially, the vaccine will be available in limited quantities.  So, the ACIP also made recommendations regarding which people within the groups listed above should be prioritized if the vaccine is initially available in extremely limited quantities. For more information see the CDC press release CDC Advisors Make Recommendations for Use of Vaccine Against 2009 H1N1.  

Once the demand for vaccine for the prioritized groups has been met at the local level, programs and providers should also begin vaccinating everyone from the ages of 25 through 64 years. Current studies indicate that the risk for infection among persons age 65 or older is less than the risk for younger age groups. However, once vaccine demand among younger age groups has been met, programs and providers should offer vaccination to people 65 or older. 

Blue from West Oz
Posted 2009-09-17 8:42 PM (#30877 - in reply to #30872)


Master and Commander

Posts: 2357

Subject: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

Stoops - 2009-09-18 9:12 AM


Because I am not confused about the "best health care in the world" and the cost of it. We do have the best healthcare in the entire world. How could you doubt it? I think Mikey may protest, but any rational person can't.



How can I doubt it? for those same reasons I mentioned.

The health of the nation is not just about the health of the 'chosen ones'.

When a poor man can get medical treatment for cancer that a rich man can, then I will say you have the best system in the world.

Not all poor people are bludgers on society, some of them are damn hard workers, fathers/mothers who for whatever reason have been placed into poverty or near.

You have a lovely home and lifestyle that you have worked extremely hard for....I have also stayed with other people in the US that are less fortunate for a multitude of reasons. To deny them the 'best healthcare in the world' is wrong, wrong, wrong.

I have read a statement that says, ' a nation can be judged by how it cares for it's prisoners'......I think that really should say, '....it's less fortunate'.

The 'world' really does consist of more countries than the USA you know?

Blue *_*

PS. Just Googled 'best healthcare system in the world'? and by the the World Health Organisation's Standards....not Stoops Standards, here is the list:



1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
51 Dominican Republic
Blue from West Oz
Posted 2009-09-17 8:47 PM (#30878 - in reply to #30877)


Master and Commander

Posts: 2357

Subject: and another interesting Table...

...but dated 1997...

http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_health_performance_ranks.html

The figures are interesting.

If anyone can find this or last year's figures that would be great.

Blue *_*
Donald L. Johnson
Posted 2009-09-17 9:04 PM (#30880 - in reply to #30868)


Great Sage of the Sea

Posts: 602

Location: Visalia, Ca.
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Skii - 2009-09-17 5:49 PM

With all of our wealth and medical technology I cannot we can not produce enough vaccine to eradicate this nasty problem. I wonder how many Viagra, Cialis and Levitra pills are made a month? Then again I wonder how many injections are being sent to the Congress and White House? It is just another mismanagement going on in Washington.

Ski


The problem is, the methods used are entirely different.

With Viagra, etc., and most prescription and non-prescription drugs, all they have to do is mix up the chemical components, combine with inert fillers and press into pills, or mix with saline solution to the desired strength and bottle it. Production-line work - Crank out millions of pills or vials a day.

Vaccines are usually made from the genetic material of the target virus, and have to be grown in culture for a specific length of time. If memory serves, flu virus vaccines are grown in chicken eggs, and require several months of incubation before they can be used. And for a new strain of virus, they have to actually develop the vaccine and test it before they can begin mass-production.

The common flu virus strains are well known, and don't change much from year to year, so the big Pharma companies can start production in the early Spring and have plenty of vaccine available by flu season.

With H1N1, they started developing the vaccine last Fall during the original outbreak, but it wasn't ready to test until late Spring, so it took longer to get it into production.

That is why they want the first batches to go to the most at-risk: children, and adults with weaker immune systems.




Edited by Donald L. Johnson 2009-09-17 9:08 PM
Donald L. Johnson
Posted 2009-09-17 9:19 PM (#30881 - in reply to #30854)


Great Sage of the Sea

Posts: 602

Location: Visalia, Ca.
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Park Dallis - 2009-09-17 4:00 PM

Actually, H1N1 has proven to be much more hazardous to the young than the old.

It seems that persons born before 1957 have a certain amount of immunity to the virus, probably as a result of exposure to some genetic relative of the current H1N1 in the past.

You should rely on the advice of your doctor as to whether or not you should get this immunization.  He/she knows you, knows your state of immune health, and knows the amount of risk you face from the H1N1.


That doesn't surprise me. We grew up in the time before people went ape over anti-biotics and anti-bacterial soaps. We were exposed to all the bacteria and germs in the dirt we played and worked in, and our immune systems developed responses to them.

Now-a-days, with so much use of cleansers and anti-bacterials, and people wanting anti-biotics for the common cold, kids are not exposed to the weaker germs, and so don't have the opportunity to develop immunities before they are exposed to the really strong germs that the anti-bacterial and anti-biotic cleaners DON'T kill. Think MRSA and the penicillin-resistant strains of VD that came out of Viet Nam.

That is also part of the reason so many more kids have asthma and allergies today than we did. No early exposure, no natural resistance/immune response development.


Rambo
Posted 2009-09-18 7:21 AM (#30912 - in reply to #30877)


Mess cooking

Posts: 36

Location: Longview, WA
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

Blue, your comment about the WHO brought to mind a recent editorial in the Wall Street Journal. They were talking about the facts about our health care system and brought up the WHO rating. The quote:

"• The World Health Organization ranks the U.S. 37th In the world in quality. This is another frightening statistic. It is also not accurate. Yet the head of the National Committee for Quality Assurance, a powerful organization influencing both the government and private insurers in defining quality of care, has stated this as fact.

The World Health Organization ranks the U.S. No. 1 among all countries in "responsiveness." Responsiveness has two components: respect for persons (including dignity, confidentiality and autonomy of individuals and families to make decisions about their own care), and client orientation (including prompt attention, access to social support networks during care, quality of basic amenities and choice of provider). This is what Americans rightly understand as quality care and worry will be lost in the upheaval of reform. Our country's composite score fell to 37 primarily because we lack universal coverage and care is a financial burden for many citizens."

It seems to me that ratings can often be just another name for opinions.

Here is the link if you are interested. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204731804574383294047706218.html

Blue from West Oz
Posted 2009-09-18 7:56 AM (#30916 - in reply to #30912)


Master and Commander

Posts: 2357

Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

Rambo, thanks for the link and comments.

At the end of the day it would appear that your link in 'another opinion'....just as the link I provided was just 'another opinion'.

Which opinion is correct? I have no idea.

What I take point to is when someone states that their system is 'the best in the entire world' when really they possibly have never had medical treatment in any other nation.

I have had treatment for a variety of injuries....most of them self inflicted to a degree ( lol ) in England, Australia, Singapore, USA, New Zealand, Italy Hong Kong, Australia and USA.

All have treated me with extreme professionalism...as one would hope. But I was covered by the military in all cases..except as a child in England.

I take exception to any nations healthcare system that doesn't treat a widow or a shipmate from here who is not as fortunate as others, in a less than favourable standing.

I will once again reiterate that I am NOT saying Australia has the best either.

Surely you guys don't believe that your system can do with some tweaking, small or otherwise?

US....A female with 2 kids pays USD$1,500 a month
AUS....A female with 2 kids pays USD$130(ish) a month

What's the difference?

If yours is ultimately 'THE WORLD's BEST'....then why is it so damn expensive and therefore out of the reach of so many of your citizens. Does anyobody care for them? Are you not a 'Christian' society?

Blue *_*
Ric
Posted 2009-09-18 8:14 AM (#30917 - in reply to #30916)


Plankowner

Posts: 9165

Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map.
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

I am now retired.. (my choice)... to buy basic health insurance would take 50% of my monthly SS check..... I can go the the public health hospital in Seattle and get some form of care but the place is way overloaded. No, I've said it for the last 25 years that health care is broken and needs fixing.
Had a friend that had a medical emergency, (life threatening), in Norway. In the US it would have cost her $400.000.00 for the treatment she got for less than $14,000.00 since she wasn't a citizen of that country. If she had been a citizen it would have cost her $0.00. 24 hour nurse care, (one in the room at all times), in a P3 cleanroom facility and numerous surgeries. She had her company health insurance also but would probably still be fighting them about procedures if it had happened here.
It's broke!!! And it ain't the Doctors that broke it. Corporate greed did.
Ralph Luther
Posted 2009-09-18 8:27 AM (#30919 - in reply to #30917)
COMSUBBBS

Posts: 6180

Location: Summerville, SC
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

Ric, I tend to agree about corporate greed, however, malpractice law suits come into play also. My Dad was an Osteopathic Physician, never had a claim made against him in his 50 years of practice and his insurance premiums were in the upper thousands of dollars. He was also a surgeon but backed out of that when the costs to maintain that license got to high. My younger sister is a licensed PA and MP insurance is sky high for her.
Money to pay for this has to come from somewhere. As Dennis the Menece says, "Bend over".
Roy Ator
Posted 2009-09-18 8:32 AM (#30920 - in reply to #30842)


Great Sage of the Sea

Posts: 892

Location: Palo Pinto County, Texas
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Hey Cobber, you stirred up a hornets nest with this string! In light of all of the opinions and statistics brought up, I'd like to make a couple of personal observations.

1. From personal experience with the wife and myself, the USA has superb medical care. Many foreign nationals with financial assets also utilize our superb medical care.

2. Over the decades, our means of payment for our medical care has changed with the system and aging. What's royally fouled up is the government's (both national & state) intervention coupled with insurance fraud and big pharmaceuticals political action.

End of rant ~
Scrivener
Posted 2009-09-18 9:39 AM (#30923 - in reply to #30842)
Senior Crew

Posts: 217

Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

"Ric, I tend to agree about corporate greed, however, malpractice law suits come into play also."

Ralph,

According to a recent Congressional Budget Office report, costs associated with medical malpractice only constitute 2% of overall health care spending.
Ralph Luther
Posted 2009-09-18 10:22 AM (#30924 - in reply to #30923)
COMSUBBBS

Posts: 6180

Location: Summerville, SC
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

This could be so, George. 2% may seem like a small amount but it still accounts for mucho dinero. The suits might "only constitute 2%" but where does they figure the cost in the insured recouping their costs? Much of what Doctors and such charge is recouping the cost of insurance. Recouping costs is one reason hospitals charge $10 for a tylenol. Recouping costs is why Nursing Homes charge what they do. It goes around and around and all are on the bandwagon. 2% here, 5% there and it adds up.
Rambo
Posted 2009-09-18 10:44 AM (#30926 - in reply to #30916)


Mess cooking

Posts: 36

Location: Longview, WA
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

Yep, it’s just an editorial. A New York Times editorial by Paul Krugman tells us: “In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We’ve all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false.” (link http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/opinion/17krugman.html ). Wow, Britain must have the best health care system in the universe. ? I don’t know anything about other countries health care and cannot rate our system. I know that my insurance paid all but a few thousand of my cochlear implant. I felt that the care I received was first rate. My problem is that I think that the UN sometimes chooses methods that paint the US in the darkest shades of gray. When the UN is cited I think that a little deeper look is called for.
Ric
Posted 2009-09-18 10:57 AM (#30927 - in reply to #30926)


Plankowner

Posts: 9165

Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map.
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

But you are missing the whole point.
YOU HAVE INSURANCE................ how is a person without means of paying for that to survive even minor illnesses let alone an elective surgery like yours? I have a choice. A place to live in or insurance. I prefer to be warm and dry but I'd sure like to be covered medically too.
Many folks our age are faced with eating or meds that take their whole SS check to pay for then they are on food stamps and that is looked down on by many and something only lazy people get. But that is another whole bag of worms.
610ET
Posted 2009-09-18 11:08 AM (#30929 - in reply to #30842)


Old Salt

Posts: 438

Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Blue, I think what Dave might have meant to say is that the quality of care available in the US is amongst the best in the world.

The “problems” with our system are cost and portability for the most part and tort related to some extent. All of those “problems” could be solved easily by the government without creating a huge new government entity which WILL be even more expensive than it is now. It’s so easy a caveman could do it so why don’t they?

Answer; Almost all politicians pretty much suck.
Ralph Luther
Posted 2009-09-18 11:20 AM (#30930 - in reply to #30927)
COMSUBBBS

Posts: 6180

Location: Summerville, SC
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

There is "no free lunch" and there shouldn't be even for medicare. Having said that, taking care of yourself should cost you something. Otherwise you become a ward of the State and that isn't right either.
Medical costs are way to high and there should be some type of regulation to prevent ridiculous charges. There isn't any simple quick fix to this problem. In order for an insurance company to cover your expenses they also must earn a profit to stay in business. This goes for the Doctors, Hospitals, etc.. So we place a cap on charges for office visits, surgeries, etc. Then along comes someone that just doesn't feel like buying insurance. Who takes up the slack for him just because he doesn't feel like paying.
The Federal Government couldn't handle the Cash for Clunkers program right. How in the world does anyone in their right mind think they can handle a complex program of Healthcare?
Ric
Posted 2009-09-18 11:58 AM (#30932 - in reply to #30930)


Plankowner

Posts: 9165

Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map.
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

So what is the choice? Living on the street with insurance or in a house without it? What would you choose? I tried buying Basic Health here from the state but as the economy tanked they stopped taking new people. I'm "on the list". I could have afforded that but not a commercial for profit policy from the wall street boys. I'm not asking for handouts but the system is setup to take it all and leave you nothing.

< rant >
The only way to solve it is to take all the private retirements and medicals congress has set up for themselves and make them use what they have voted for for the rest of us to live with. As "public servants" they need to know what the "public" has to live with.
< /rant >

I'm done.....
610ET
Posted 2009-09-18 12:05 PM (#30933 - in reply to #30932)


Old Salt

Posts: 438

Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

Ric - 2009-09-18 2:58 PM

The only way to solve it is to take all the private retirements and medicals congress has set up for themselves and make them use what they have voted for for the rest of us to live with. As "public servants" they need to know what the "public" has to live with.


Or we could put all citizens on the same plans that they have and pay the same amounts that they do.

I would love to hear a senior pol explain why that wouldn’t work. Course hypocrisy is lost on the hypocrite.
Rambo
Posted 2009-09-18 12:20 PM (#30936 - in reply to #30927)


Mess cooking

Posts: 36

Location: Longview, WA
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

I get the point. I have insurance through my work. I feel that I earn it. State employee, lower wages, better bennies. It paid most of my implant (not elective if I wanted to keep my job and yes, I met the criteria in both ears even though I only got one).

I’m lucky. Affordable health care for all is a wonderful goal. 100 years ago it wasn’t such a problem because there were no cochlear implants or CAT scan machines or other expensive tests and devices. And not nearly as many lawsuits either.

New methods, equipment and medications will keep making health care more expensive. How to make health care available to all is well above my pay grade. I just hope that they take the time to do it right because whatever they do is gonna be another entitlement and, like Social Security, a political third rail. We’re gonna be stuck with it.
Ralph Luther
Posted 2009-09-18 12:37 PM (#30937 - in reply to #30932)
COMSUBBBS

Posts: 6180

Location: Summerville, SC
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

It's tough, Ric, no doubt about it and a gamble when you get right down to it. I retired early and had to tough it out until Social Security and medicare kicked in. My retiring early is a story in itself because of a health problem and there was the pre-existing condition clause for most any health insurance. Luckily, I didn't need any serious healthcare during the inbetween times. Prayer works.
crystal
Posted 2009-09-18 1:00 PM (#30938 - in reply to #30842)


Master and Commander

Posts: 2191

Location: Port Ludlow, WA (the Olympic Penninsula)
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Ric, you keep saying a roof over your head or not... How about the fact that estate planning (including health coverage) should have entered your mind waaaayyy back when you were young stud who thought himself bullet proof.. Sometimes one choices of life styles may dictate what they face later in life - welcome to that point!  The 7 "P's" apply here: Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance - or has also been said herein is "that there is no free lunch" - I/we should not be made to cover your health costs as taxpayers simply because you chose not to worry about it before now...
Park Dallis
Posted 2009-09-18 1:55 PM (#30941 - in reply to #30842)


Old Salt

Posts: 419

Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

I got out of school, following my Navy days, at the age of 25.  I then joined a big company and had great insurance.  I was bulletproof.  Ask me whether I was satisfied with my insurance I'd have said, "Sure."

After 20 years I left the big company and started my own business.  I was a Union Electrical Contractor and had insurance through the IBEW.  I was still happy with my insurance... I never needed it.

Then I moved to Alaska and went without insurance for a year.  Didn't need it.  No problem.

I went to work for a small engineering firm and had BC/BS.  Still satisfied?  Yep.

Then I got cancer...

"Oh, your doctor isn't in our system.  We only reimburse 50%, not 80%, for him and his office."  That cost me $15,000 out of pocket.  Luckily I could pay for it over time but now I'm not so happy.

Then there was a work slowdown and I got laid off.

Not only did that leave me with no insurance, I now have pre-existing conditions and can't get insurance...

Four months later I aged into Medicare.  I love Medicare; private insurance... not so much.



Ric
Posted 2009-09-18 1:55 PM (#30942 - in reply to #30938)


Plankowner

Posts: 9165

Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map.
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

I had all that John. Sorry you feel so superior about this but I had all that. I had a huge portfolio that overnight I lost many many tens of thousands of dollars when the market crashed in 2000. I had to start all over and I worked on that. I also have two retirement accounts from former company's I worked for you recognize them , Bristol - Myers Squibb and SanoFi, mega international concerns with good pension plans. The former I'm working on getting my account transferred in to my Vanguard account and the other I can't access until Dec. of next year. So don't preach to me about planning. I planned. But life doesn't go as planned for all. I know life isn't fair John. Maybe you'll find that out some day.
steamboat
Posted 2009-09-18 1:57 PM (#30943 - in reply to #30932)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1814

Location: Boydton, Virginia
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

I agree with most of what you stated, Ric. especially the greed of the ins. companies that are only interested in turning a fancy profit for thier shareholders.
However, it is a misperception that Congress has a Health plan set up just for themselves. They have the same options that I had as a Federal Gov. worker. We had several different companies and several options from those companies to choose from at the end of each year during an open season. However, don't think that it is a free perk. I am paying about $350/mo. for a basic Blue Cross plan, which covers my wife also. The reason that the Feds can offer these plans is that they cross state lines, whereas private plans are restricted to within the state you live in. That is one of the main issues that Congress is trying to fix.
The bottom line is, the more competition that is injected into the system, the more affordable health ins. will be. Isn't that the American way? Competition?
I don't know enough about the Health Ins. cooperatives that they are talking about now. I know nobody is too excited about the idea, but if it will inject copetition into the system, why not give it a try?
The coment about illegals using our health system.... as I understand it they will espressly be excluded. However, a comunity hospital never turns away someone in need of emergancy care. It is our American way of life. However, we have been paying for illegal and residents ER care for decades with inflated health ins. premiums. If every legal resident was covered under some kind of plan, frivolous ER visits would end. And if we had the means and will to enforce existing immigration laws, they would be off the rolls of mine and your health ins. premiums.
It is a very compex issue that Congress is trying to solve in a few short months. However there has never been so much momentum built up to solve the problem. Next year will be too late as all Congressmen will be concentrating on election and will not want to deal with anything this controversial.
As I have stated before, the strength of our Democracy has been our ability to compromise. For heaven's sake why cannot we do that now?????????????
Steamboat sends

Edited by steamboat 2009-09-18 2:01 PM
610ET
Posted 2009-09-18 2:03 PM (#30944 - in reply to #30943)


Old Salt

Posts: 438

Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

steamboat - 2009-09-18 4:57 PM

However, it is a misperception that Congress has a Health plan set up just for themselves. They have the same options that I had as a Federal Gov. worker.


Are you sure about that? No offense intended but elected officials sure don't have the same retirement plan that other federal workers do.
steamboat
Posted 2009-09-18 2:12 PM (#30945 - in reply to #30944)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1814

Location: Boydton, Virginia
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

I thought Congress didhave the same options as us peon Federal workers, 610. The way that they describe it sounded a lot like what I have. I been wrong a couple times and maybe this is one.
I do know that the absolute cheapest health plans are offered by USPS. They went out on strike during Nixon and got away with it resulting in rediculousy cheap plans. That may be one reason they are almost defunct now.
Steamboat sends
610ET
Posted 2009-09-18 2:26 PM (#30946 - in reply to #30945)


Old Salt

Posts: 438

Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......


Is this the same for all federal workers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_pension

If so, good deal for everyone and let's put all of us on it.
steamboat
Posted 2009-09-18 2:51 PM (#30947 - in reply to #30946)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1814

Location: Boydton, Virginia
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

Your Wikipedia reference does not address Health ins, only pension.
Steamboat sends
610ET
Posted 2009-09-18 3:00 PM (#30948 - in reply to #30947)


Old Salt

Posts: 438

Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

steamboat - 2009-09-18 5:51 PM

Your Wikipedia reference does not address Health ins, only pension.
Steamboat sends


Disregard the politics but this looks pretty good. Why can’t we get it? It doesn’t address whether those rates are for a single or family plan. Either way, good deal.

http://public-healthcare-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/health_care_for_the_us_congress
Scrivener
Posted 2009-09-18 3:23 PM (#30949 - in reply to #30842)
Senior Crew

Posts: 217

Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

"But life doesn't go as planned for all."

You're exactly right, Ric. I can personally attest to that. In spades.

The fundamental issue is who bears the costs when a responsible person's plan goes awry; or, alternatively, when a person, who unlike you, fails to plan; or, again alternatively, when a person's plan is to rely on government care? Frankly, I am conflicted on those issues. I don't want to see anyone going without care; but, on the other hand, I fear any additional grants of power over the private sector to the government.

It's a tough nut to crack.
Blue from West Oz
Posted 2009-09-18 6:07 PM (#30953 - in reply to #30842)


Master and Commander

Posts: 2357

Subject: Excellent!....

...a deep and meaningful discussion without the slander!!

Thanks Ric for agreeing with my statement and pointing out that not all people of the USA have been fortunate.

That is exactly what I was referring to....that there are some people on this BBS who are not as fortunate as others for a variety of reasons and therefore Private Health Insurance is unavailable to them. By the way, I pay AUD$30 a fortnight for my private health......it just saved me around $4-500 on a pair of reading glasses, cost me $80 out of pockets instead. ( which I may claim back through work if I could be bothered doing the paperwork! )

Whilst I do not know enough about your health covers...or ours for that matter....I just believe that Health Cover should be for ALL American's...( and in my case, Australian's ) not just for those that are able to look down over their glasses and say, "well you should have planned better"....because planning any better wouldn't have saved my marriage as an example and cost me approx $400-500, 000.

Blue *_*

Edited by Blue from West Oz 2009-09-18 6:08 PM
Stoops
Posted 2009-09-18 7:00 PM (#30954 - in reply to #30842)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1405

Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US)
Subject: Why can't you buy what you need?

One of the unanswered questions is why the states (or is it the fed) dictate to the insurance companies what products they can sell? For any given state, insurance companies must include certain coverage (mandates). This means that you can not buy a policy that doesn't cover all of the mandates. I don't give a damn about port wine stain coverage (which is not even life threatening) This drives the cost of insurance up and steals premiums from those that don't want the coverage to give to those that do.

What I want is catastrophic insurance....bypass surgery, cancer, etc. I'll buy my drugs, pay the doctor for broken bones, etc......Screw the vanity s**t.....I'll buy want I think is worth the cost....
Why is the fed involved? Who in the hell sets the mandates....

I swear, if you allow the insurance companies to be unfettered by the nanny state bureaucrats and allow people to buy what they want, insurance rates would probably come down quite a bit.

Also, catastrophic coverage only would eliminate unnecessary trips to the doctor for a runny nose, etc. except for the wacko hypocondriacs and others of that nature.

And this could be done and significant improvement done without a major legislative upheaval.

And NO ONE SEEMS to be interested in analyzing what the problems are and how to use common sense to solve them.....Everyone wants to demand the gummint step in and magically solve the problem...the same gummint that has kept the PO running at a high profit, and insuring that Medicare and Medicaid are running budget surpluses....not to mention what a great job they have done in the mortgage business.....

I say, no thanks, but we're better off with less gummint intervention...which generally creates more problems than it solves.
Corabelle
Posted 2009-09-18 9:31 PM (#30957 - in reply to #30954)


COMSUBBBS

Posts: 2561

Location: Rapid City, SD
Subject: RE: Why can't you buy what you need?

I thought it was the other way...the insurance companies dictate to the doctors and the pharmacists what they will pay for. When I was still working, one of the best OB-GYN men in Rapid City retired early because he felt responsible for his patients, and he didn't want insurance companies to tell him how long he could keep his patients hospitalized.

And now...someone, I don't know for sure who...but I'm going to try to find out, is telling the medication supplements which drugs they will include in their formulary. I was prescribed a long-acting Nitroglycerin capsule (not the sublingual pill), and I have to pay full price for it because, "The medication you requested is one of several drugs not covered by Medicare Prescription Drug plans by law, Section 1927(d) of the Social Security Act." This was the response my cardiologist received when he asked for a reversal of the first denial. My doctor thinks I should be on this med; someone who helped write the Social Security Act rules doesn't think I need it. This, of course, is one of the most expensive drugs that have been prescribed for me.

Cora



Edited by Corabelle 2009-09-18 9:34 PM
Donald L. Johnson
Posted 2009-09-19 12:01 AM (#30960 - in reply to #30954)


Great Sage of the Sea

Posts: 602

Location: Visalia, Ca.
Subject: RE: Why can't you buy what you need?

Both the States and the Federal Government regulate insurance companies.

Every State has an Insurance Commissioner of some sort who regulates the Insurance Companies that do business in that state. They adopt and enforce regulations as specified by the State Legislature as to what coverages they MUST provide in to their policyholders, and regulate premiums and corporate practices.

Healthcare and Insurance companies set their policies and coverages to comply with the regulations. They also set policies to control costs, including "guidelines" for appropriate treatment of certain illnesses and conditions. You want them to pay for your medical care, you play by their rules. Plus, being private companies, they have to make enough profit to maintain their required cash reserves, pay their personnel costs, and maybe have some left over to pay the shareholders a dividend.

The Federal Government runs Medicare, Tricare, Military Healthcare and the VA Medical System. They operate in a similar fashion - the Congress establishes basic rules as to who is eligible for what program, what can be covered, how Pharmacy programs work, and then delegates the details to the appropriate bureaucracy - DOD, DVA, or the US Health Benefits Agency(?) that runs Medicare/Medicaid. They establish what the government will pay for a given medical procedure, what drugs get the best discount or subsidy, and which the patient will pay full price for, etc. Insurance companies and healthcare providers that serve Medicare/Medicaid or Tricare patients must comply with these regulations.

So no matter what healthcare system you are in, to a certain extent the government is in control. With private healthcare, you have some flexibility, since you can (sometimes) change plans if you don't like the one you are in. With a Government-run system, you take what they give you.

crystal
Posted 2009-09-19 6:39 AM (#30963 - in reply to #30842)


Master and Commander

Posts: 2191

Location: Port Ludlow, WA (the Olympic Penninsula)
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Hey Ric, good planning means "you make it happen", no one is acting superior here... If you made bad decisions, lost money "whatever", you didn't plan well, s**t happens and if it happens to you, you tighten your belt and get busy, whining doesn't cut it - and NO I wasn't handed what I have, I worked for it and planned!  Stop trying to turn it around to where you're the victim, if you had a good ride, get off and pay again!
dex armstrong
Posted 2009-09-19 11:56 AM (#30970 - in reply to #30842)


COMSUBBBS

Posts: 3202

Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

No argument here. First I don't know what the answer is or profess to know. That simple. I would like to state a few facts as they directly apply to my family. My Dad was a company grade officer during the Depression and he and my Mother dreamed of building their own home. They began saving in 1932 and continued saving until 1946 when they bought a piece of property on the side of Lookout Mountain overlooking Chattanooga at the halfway stop in the Incline (Shingle Road) by that time my Dad was a Colonel commanding a Parachute Infantry Regt at Fort Benning. On the weekends, he and my Mother built a house to the plans and specifications of the House of the Month in a pre-war edition of POPULAR MECHANICS...He mailed off for the prepackaged Plans and Specs and sent a Postal Money Order for $8.95" for them. Mom and Dad mixed the cement in a mudbox and poured the foundations in form boxes in the basement they hand dug. Wes, my Dad, would take leave and do framing and roofing (only hiring a licenced and certified electrician to do the wiring.). He and Mom laid the oak flooring and installed an Iron Fireman and duct system by themselves. We moved in in early 48. A month later after we moved in....My Mother had been bothered by a "knot in her breast" while they were ticking off the pre-occupancy check list. Turned out to be advanced breast cancer...over the next couple of years she underwent six major surgeries...lost both breasts, the stripping of five or six feet of lympth system and other organs as the cancer slowly advanced taking her by inches. God mercifully look what little was left of her April 6, 1950...My Father, resigned his commision to be with her. A childhood friend of his Leland B. Godfrey got him a position as the Asst. Sales Director of Signal Mountain Portland Cement Company to provide him what was considered good medical insurance. Another dear childhood friend Dr. Cecil B. Newell, a neurosurgeon operated on my Mother each time AND GOD BLESS HIM NEVER CHARGED MY FATHER A DIME...The largest hospital in Chattanooga is named for this wonderful doctor. But the uncovered expenses bankrupted my Father and he lost his home, his car...he lost everything, but the court judgement attending the bankruptsy cleared him from any futher payments on the debt. He was part of Brokaw's Greatest Generation...He paid back every cent and celebrated meeting his obligations by taking me and my Sister to dinner in 1958 and we burned a letter from the Pioneer Bank in Chattanooga, thanking him for satifying all his obligation without requesting discounts or a reduced balance. In his world, a man paid his debts in full. But, he never recovered...he never had the will or ambition to begin again...medical bills destroyed him...that monster ate all of his dreams when it took their dream home away and destroyed him financially and left him, a man who paid everything on time with a bankuptsy on his record....He felt like some kind of societal leper. Fast forward, I had Blue Cross/ Blue Shield (FEP) Federal Employees Plan when my Solveig got sick....In my 30 year federal career I had taken less than two-weeks sick leave and had several thousand hours of sick leave on the books. I was granted what is known as "Family Friendly Sick Leave" where I could apply my sick leave to nursing her through her illness as she progressed to her death, which mercifully came in less than four months. During her illness, I opted for some promising experimental treatments and chemo not covered by my medical insurance. I was fully aware of what I was doing to myself, but when you love someone with all of your earthly being, you grab every damn straw you are offered. When she died with my medical bill debts and funeral expenses....I watched her life insurance, retirement assets, inheritance from her mother and father and savings account balance evaporate as I shovelled money into the mouth of the Medical Industry monster. John, I satisfied it all. Here's my view, in a country as bountiful as the United States no child should go hungry, or sleep in a home with no heat....No citizen should suffer unnecessary pain or lose everything they have to allieviate the pain and suffering of their loved ones of get them the best lifesaving treatment available. There is absolutely no excuse for this Blessed By God nation to be 37th in the world hit parade of quality of health care provided to its' citizens. I've seen the devistation that medical bills can bring to responsible families who satisfy their debts. Up close and personal. No whining here, just a statement of facts as I have lived them....No solutions offered...no advocacy of any proposed plan...DEX
dex armstrong
Posted 2009-09-19 11:57 AM (#30971 - in reply to #30842)


COMSUBBBS

Posts: 3202

Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

No argument here. First I don't know what the answer is or profess to know. That simple. I would like to state a few facts as they directly apply to my family. My Dad was a company grade officer during the Depression and he and my Mother dreamed of building their own home. They began saving in 1932 and continued saving until 1946 when they bought a piece of property on the side of Lookout Mountain overlooking Chattanooga at the halfway stop in the Incline (Shingle Road) by that time my Dad was a Colonel commanding a Parachute Infantry Regt at Fort Benning. On the weekends, he and my Mother built a house to the plans and specifications of the House of the Month in a pre-war edition of POPULAR MECHANICS...He mailed off for the prepackaged Plans and Specs and sent a Postal Money Order for $8.95" for them. Mom and Dad mixed the cement in a mudbox and poured the foundations in form boxes in the basement they hand dug. Wes, my Dad, would take leave and do framing and roofing (only hiring a licenced and certified electrician to do the wiring.). He and Mom laid the oak flooring and installed an Iron Fireman and duct system by themselves. We moved in in early 48. A month later after we moved in....My Mother had been bothered by a "knot in her breast" while they were ticking off the pre-occupancy check list. Turned out to be advanced breast cancer...over the next couple of years she underwent six major surgeries...lost both breasts, the stripping of five or six feet of lympth system and other organs as the cancer slowly advanced taking her by inches. God mercifully look what little was left of her April 6, 1950...My Father, resigned his commision to be with her. A childhood friend of his Leland B. Godfrey got him a position as the Asst. Sales Director of Signal Mountain Portland Cement Company to provide him what was considered good medical insurance. Another dear childhood friend Dr. Cecil B. Newell, a neurosurgeon operated on my Mother each time AND GOD BLESS HIM NEVER CHARGED MY FATHER A DIME...The largest hospital in Chattanooga is named for this wonderful doctor. But the uncovered expenses bankrupted my Father and he lost his home, his car...he lost everything, but the court judgement attending the bankruptsy cleared him from any futher payments on the debt. He was part of Brokaw's Greatest Generation...He paid back every cent and celebrated meeting his obligations by taking me and my Sister to dinner in 1958 and we burned a letter from the Pioneer Bank in Chattanooga, thanking him for satifying all his obligation without requesting discounts or a reduced balance. In his world, a man paid his debts in full. But, he never recovered...he never had the will or ambition to begin again...medical bills destroyed him...that monster ate all of his dreams when it took their dream home away and destroyed him financially and left him, a man who paid everything on time with a bankuptsy on his record....He felt like some kind of societal leper. Fast forward, I had Blue Cross/ Blue Shield (FEP) Federal Employees Plan when my Solveig got sick....In my 30 year federal career I had taken less than two-weeks sick leave and had several thousand hours of sick leave on the books. I was granted what is known as "Family Friendly Sick Leave" where I could apply my sick leave to nursing her through her illness as she progressed to her death, which mercifully came in less than four months. During her illness, I opted for some promising experimental treatments and chemo not covered by my medical insurance. I was fully aware of what I was doing to myself, but when you love someone with all of your earthly being, you grab every damn straw you are offered. When she died with my medical bill debts and funeral expenses....I watched her life insurance, retirement assets, inheritance from her mother and father and savings account balance evaporate as I shovelled money into the mouth of the Medical Industry monster. John, I satisfied it all. Here's my view, in a country as bountiful as the United States no child should go hungry, or sleep in a home with no heat....No citizen should suffer unnecessary pain or lose everything they have to allieviate the pain and suffering of their loved ones of get them the best lifesaving treatment available. There is absolutely no excuse for this Blessed By God nation to be 37th in the world hit parade of quality of health care provided to its' citizens. I've seen the devistation that medical bills can bring to responsible families who satisfy their debts. Up close and personal. No whining here, just a statement of facts as I have lived them....No solutions offered...no advocacy of any proposed plan...DEX
SOB490
Posted 2009-09-19 1:02 PM (#30972 - in reply to #30877)


Old Salt

Posts: 489

Location: San Freakcisco CA area
Subject: RE: W.H.O Standards, 2000......

>>>Just Googled 'best healthcare system in the world'? and by the the World Health Organisation's Standards....not Stoops Standards, here is the list:

WHO, a UN organization, has its own "standards" by which "best" is determined - which is no different than the rest of us having our own standards.

What constitutes "best" anyway? Universal coverage? Treatment? Quality of care? Research and innovation? Prevention?

Without getting into a political rant here, it appears that some folks believe that everyone having access to the same medical care constitutes "best."

While equal access may indeed be an issue, that access may be to a medical system that still uses leeches to cure disease -- i.e. the matter of quality of care is essentially ignored by subscribing solely to the "access" criteria.

Quality of care, in turn, is driven principally by two factors - co$t and effectiveness.

Effectiveness is achieved because medications and techniques are developed and perfected. I wouldn't be alive today absent the ability for a doctor to look into an artery, locate and then effectively reduce a blockage. 

Those tecniques and the sophisticated equipment that enables a skilled cardiologist to work this miracle had to be invented and perfected --- and that takes $$. They sure as hell didn't come with the proverbial apple tree in the Garden of Eden.

I remember my father and grandfather discussing the flu epidemic in this country at the end of WWI - and that the local ice house and the freezers at Bishop's Cafeteria were converted into morgues because there were hundreds and hundreds of bodies and no place to store them.

Today - back to the start of this entire thread - flu is a discomfort but is rarely fatal anymore. Even swine flu has a relatively low mortality rate - especially contrasted with the common flu epidemic of 1918. I even remember an outbreak of Asiatic Flu in the early 60s that put thousands in the hospital and then in dormitory beds at universities because the hospitals overflowed - and a relatively low death rate.

My point? Effectiveness of treatment not only reduces the death rate, continued research also eradicates diseases. Anyone remember the huge polio epidemic in the summer of 1945? I sure do - and the loss of 2 cousins and a brother. When is the last time anyone heard of a death caused by polio?

Effective treatment needs infrastructure and tools by which it is delivered - old Doc Sutton doesn't come to your house, black bag and all, in a horse and buggy anymore. Hospitals have replaced leeches with the latest drugs.

Where do these modern hospitals, drugs, and diagnostic devices come from? Surely not the gummit -- they come from research programs that you and I pay pennies on the dollar for every time we use them.

So, I respectfully submit that WHO can't determine "best" any more than I can. WHO's basis is not prevention, rather it is cure. I think they have the cart and horse a bit confused.

Again - back to the start of this thread - innoculation against swine flu is prevention!

Every government health agency knew in April that we were susceptible to a massive outbreak again starting as early as September - so while an incubation period necesary to produce vaccines exists, we started with full knowledge of what the effective vaccine is, we had the cultures, and we knew the process by which it would be manufactured.

So why is it necessary for the gummit to now prioritize youngsters? Simply because, as gummits do, they sat on their hands instead of going balls-out to produce more vaccine.  This has nothing to do with Blue's "chosen ones" and everything with governmental inertia - and proclivity to do our thinking for us.

steamboat
Posted 2009-09-19 1:27 PM (#30976 - in reply to #30970)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1814

Location: Boydton, Virginia
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

Well spoken Dex. If someone can't take a lesson from that, I pity them.
Steamboat sends
dex armstrong
Posted 2009-09-19 1:29 PM (#30977 - in reply to #30842)


COMSUBBBS

Posts: 3202

Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

I have no idea who SOB490 is....and to be honest, I have no idea of what he said. It is my understanding that the World Health Organization is the outfit that compiled the statistcal data ranking us 37th....I didn't Google that, got it from this Board. DEX
Scrivener
Posted 2009-09-19 2:36 PM (#30979 - in reply to #30842)
Senior Crew

Posts: 217

Subject: RE: Just a kick in the.....

"WHO, a UN organization, has its own "standards" by which "best" is determined - which is no different than the rest of us having our own standards.

What constitutes "best" anyway? Universal coverage? Treatment? Quality of care? Research and innovation? Prevention?"




SOB, you are correct to inquire into the criteria by which WHO ranked each country. Sometimes the devil is in the details.

"WHO’s assessment system was based on five indicators: overall level of population health; health inequalities (or disparities) within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health system’s financial burden within the population (who pays the costs).

http://www.photius.com/rankings/who_world_health_ranks.html

It appears to me that the WHO's scales are heavily weighted in favor of universal health care. Maybe that is what we will end up doing, but hopefully not because the UN says it is a good thing.